Choosing Countertops: Laminate, Solid Surface, Quartz and Granite with Sarah Hueners of Creative Surfaces

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Jim Lather: Welcome to another episode of Home Ideas. Today I'm joined with Sarah from Creative Surfaces. Welcome, Sarah. Hi. Thank you. What I want to do today is I want to talk about the different types of countertop surfaces before we do that. Creative surfaces is a really unique and diverse company. Give me a little backstory. I know that you do a lot of stuff in Las Vegas, and while that's not really relevant to a homeowner here in the South Dakota area, how'd your company get started? How'd you get into countertops? Actually.

Sarah Hueners: We started as a countertop company, but then evolved into, really just a lot of different products, casework, which is like commercial cabinetry. Then we moved into signage, and it started in a, you know, I'm not the expert on it, but it started a little bit with like a slot machine glass. Okay. And then it really evolved from there into building signs, monument signs, which I believe we've, drawn back on a little bit, but we still make a lot of signs for Las Vegas. Kind of the easiest way I would say is if you're at a, at, at some slot machines, there's a, there's a big sign on top of the slot machine that has a lot of bells and whistles and numbers counting. Those are the signs we make.

Jim Lather: Yeah. Very cool. I didn't realize you started as a countertop business.

Sarah Hueners: I think we had a small little shop on Kiwanis, kind of off of Kiwanis and maybe 12th Street or something. And then moved to our, our new facility now, which is now evolved to several facilities. But yeah, it really started as laminate countertops.

Jim Lather: So you guys are in Sioux Falls. I know you have a Rapid City location. Do you have another one?

Sarah Hueners: I do believe we have, like, a storefront or an office in Las Vegas.

Jim Lather: Oh, in Vegas we go. Okay, so that kind of serves that industry. All right, well, I want to focus, like I said, on countertops. And, you know, this is going to sound kind of basic, but what I have found out through my own experience is that you don't know what you don't know if you're a homeowner. And, I think education is something that we're trying to get across here. And so when we talk about laminate now, I kind of think I know, but I want that's why you're here. You're the expert. It the the it's a plastic component. The laminate. Is that correct?

Sarah Hueners: It's paper with a, It's on a it would be a, on a substrate, which is, gives it the depth of a countertop. So it's a substrate with a piece of plastic laminate on the top of it.

Jim Lather: Okay. So plastic laminate on top. And the substrate is like an OSB, kind of like a glued plywood if you.

Sarah Hueners: Yes, absolutely.

Jim Lather: All right. And so that's kind of the industry standard. And so are there different variations of quality when it comes to that. Or is it all about like what brand you like the color of and how does price work.

Sarah Hueners: It's it's several different things. There are actually two different types of laminate. One would be post form which is a a. It's where you're going to get the piece all in one. So the backsplash is attached, it's coved, it's all nice and smooth. And then there is what we call is like laid up or like a square edge where we're taking a piece of laminate, putting it on ourselves, making an edge. And you'll see the seam at the edge of the countertop. But it's for, you know, if you have around a big radius or something that we can make a, a special edge for that. They also have decorative edges that are applied after, and that's where you might be getting a, like a more intricate or, or pretty edge. You would see that in a laid up countertop. There are different brands of laminate. Yes. Formica, a lot of people maybe confuse and they just say, oh, I have for mica, right. Which is a brand name. You actually have laminate, plastic laminate. But the brand that you have might be Formica. It might be Wilson Art. There's painite, there's lots of different brands of classic laminate. But a lot of people just say, oh, I have Formica, which is a brand.

Jim Lather: And so those different brands are are they? I mean, quality wise, are they all kind of the same or is there a good, better best. And then if they are the same, are you just really then picking what they're their texture or they're veining or they're colors are.

Sarah Hueners: Yes. They're laminate has really come a long way. It is much more durable than it used to be. And you are kind of picking that just the, the idea of what it is that you like, the vein or the texture, because there are some that are matte finish, there are some that have texture. I would say that there are a couple of the different textures that have a little bit tougher, we'll say skin. And so they, they are maybe a little bit more durable, but in general you're getting all the same type of laminate. Yes.

Jim Lather: All right. Speaking of durability, let's talk a little bit about, daily usage. Okay. So, you know, most everyone understands or has had laminate in their home probably, and, and so when we talk about how much heat the service can take or what happens if you chip it, can it be repaired? You know, those kinds of questions come to mind.

Sarah Hueners: Yeah. You know, we have a lot of people that do put their paths and things on laminate. It's it's definitely not what you should do, but some people never have a problem with it, so they continue to do it. But it shouldn't be direct heat ever. Because you're really melting it. You could burn it. You could scorch it all. All of the above. It does, it does. Chip, if you hit it just at the right, the right way or the right angle, and that cannot be repaired. Cracks can't be repaired. If if you have a crack and then water gets into that crack, it's probably going to swell that particle board that's underneath. And so that's going to be something that we can't repair. So it is very durable. But once it is kind of broken it's generally broken

Jim Lather: Okay. All right. So obviously you you cover or excuse me I you carry that particular product. We're going to talk about Cambria in a minute. Is there anything between a laminate surface and Cambria that you carry.

Sarah Hueners: Yeah. We carry also solid surface, which is another thing that maybe some people get confused. A lot of times they just say, I have Corian, which Corian is a brand of solid surface. Solid surface is like an acrylic or for lack of better terms, it's just a plastic countertop. It also comes thin, like laminate and is attached to a substrate.

Jim Lather: I didn't know that.

Sarah Hueners: Oh, yeah. Okay. Half an inch is generally the thickness that it comes. And then you, you build it up on the edge to make it look thicker. And it does have that substrate underneath it. A lot of people, some of the benefits of solid surface is that you can get a, an integrated sink. Not not that you can't get that with laminate, but it's, it's built in where you have no seam at where the sink connects to the countertop. So it's very nice. It can create extremely long lengths because it's a product that when we glue it together, then we sand it. So, like, you really can't see or feel the seam. So it will look seamless over an extended length. And some people obviously like that. It's solid surface is used a lot in the medical field where they don't want any seams anywhere that germs can get in or, you know, grow. So it's a it's a good product for that. It also can be renewed, because since it's a plastic, pretty much the day that you get it, you're creating fine scratches. And it might dull over time, but it is something that we can come out and create a lot of dust. But, kind of reasoned it so that we're bringing it up to the same level it was when it left our shop. And so that's kind of a nice benefit. But on the other side, you're the next day you're creating those fine scratches again. So you're really just repeating the process that you have already developed on your countertop.

Jim Lather: So is that a step up from laminate or is it just really a different, you know, type of surface?

Sarah Hueners: No, it's a step up. I would say it's, you know, our our lowest end product would be laminate. Then we have these solid surfaces because there's a big range of pricing of solid surface beyond the brands. And then, then we get into like, engineered courts and, and natural stone would be the highest level.

Jim Lather: So why is there such a variation on the hard surface? Is it is it brand specific like Korean is the most expensive?

Sarah Hueners: Yes. And it's because, some of the designs have very little color variation. So you're really not using a lot of different products or aggregates. And then as you get up, kind of the same with quartz. The things that have more veining are a little bit more expensive. Plus we have to use a little bit more product because we're trying to line up the veining in the corner. So it's we just have a little bit more expense with some of the fancier, colors and brands.

Jim Lather: I love it. Let's talk about quartz. I was recently in the Florida market, and I walked into a countertop wholesaler and I saw quartz, and it was not on the edge, and I could not believe it. It was almost like they put a what did they do?

Sarah Hueners: It is kind of a new technology, but it's I believe it's printed. So yes, they they have some some companies out there are are doing a thin print of the courts, which does not go all the way through the product because it's then, not poured, I guess, it's hard to explain how quartz is made, but it's just not the little teeny pieces of quartz with the pigment and the resin that is then onto a form. It's it's a it's a quart slab that is then printed on.

Jim Lather: It's unbelievable because I ask the person that was helping me, I said, how do you put an edge on this thing? Because the edge is white. And he goes, in this particular example, he goes, well, you either don't put an edge on it or we try and match it. And then he said, and it always looks terrible. Oh yeah. So he wouldn't even let me look at it as we were trying to, you know, figure out what we wanted to do in, in our kitchen down there. So it was really interesting. I had no idea. I always thought, you know, based on working with creative surfaces and the and the, you know, the superiority of the game product, that everything was kind of made to that standard. But it's so not the case.

Sarah Hueners: It's definitely not, even even of non printed or we'll just say engineered courts in general, which there are lots of different brands Vicostone, Caesar stone sales stones, so so many. This is just a few. Even between those, the the level of quality is dramatically different. Cambria only uses pure white quartz. They actually have a standard of 93% quartz of the entire slab, where what they've been finding is they're doing research, is that not everybody uses the same amount of courts, so there's just different fillers instead of the courts. And the the quality of courts is a big deal. It's it's just as you don't have pure white, it maybe makes the colors not as bright, not as vibrant or clear as you're as you're trying to create those beautiful designs that they have that are very sharp, and really pretty. You're just not going to see that as much when you don't have that pure white quartz, or when you don't have as much quartz. It obviously takes away from the durability. Also, because quartz is one of the hardest, items or so when you're cutting on it, you're not being able to penetrate it. But as you have less quartz, you have more filler. So it's just not as durable. It's more susceptible to staining. It's there's a lot of things that as you get lower in quality, that you're going to start noticing, maybe not at the right in the beginning when you get them installed, but over time, I believe it will start to wear differently and be not as durable.

Jim Lather: Now you manufacture the laminate at your facility, you manufacture the, solid surface that can be your product comes to you ready to go. So talk to me a little bit about the precision of the templating. I think that's a big deal because when you make that kind of investment, it's got to fit perfect. And tell me how that goes. And and, and why or perhaps what additional maintenance is there after you put in a quartz countertops?

Sarah Hueners: Well, we do think measuring is really important. It's we as a laser template templator or and our guy who does it is extremely knowledgeable. He has tons of experience. He's seen a lot of different scenarios. And so that helps because he just has more experience. He knows what even when he comes into a kitchen that might be very unique. He knows what he's doing. He's, you know, looking for the ways that we might get stuck. And we're trying to avoid those, laser templating shows how your countertop can fit your wall. Many walls are not straight. A lot of people think they have a straight wall, but they don't. It has, you know, where the sheets of, drywall are together. There's always a little bit of a bump. Sometimes the wall than itself. There's so many different reasons that a countertop needs to be custom fit. And so yes, we then come out, we do that measure. We made a drawing, a computerized drawing that follows the wall that knows the exact sizes, and it's just very precise, down to the 16th or sometimes 32nd of an inch. We then send that drawing to Cambria. They cut it exactly off of our drawing and send us the countertop. And that's when our installers, who are well trained and kind of are just really experienced in all the different scenarios that even Aaron is trying to avoid when he's measuring. But then we install those countertops and there are people, yes, in town who fabricate their own, and they might have some nice, good machines and good employees. But we we have really found that Cambria’s million plus facility in Belle Plaine is really just superior, especially with things like waterfall edges, where you're getting a two razor sharp pieces together and at the edge, it's their fabrication is absolutely superior. And when you're just looking for that special countertop, we're we're so fortunate to have them be able to create such amazing product for us to install. It just makes everything easier.

Jim Lather: You know, really intrigued by that waterfall edge. We were doing a television segment the other day, and you told me something that it had a metal rod going through it. Do they when they do the waterfall like that, do they ship the whole piece assembled, or do your guys put it together?

Sarah Hueners: We put it together that that segment was mostly because our sign shop has its own welding division, and we, we engineered, a support that may that allowed that countertop or as you can see it in our, I guess, our Rapid City, Rapid City facility has a floating island. I think it's about nine feet. And it's just there's no cabinets underneath. And it is all possible because of that welded frame. Okay. And so if that helps you understand, but yes, the waterfall legs, there's just so many different ways. Some of them are just three centimeters. So it's just one leg down and it doesn't come assembled. We call it assembled. We take the piece and glue it to the countertop, and then we hand finish it so it's not as two razor sharp edges anymore. It's just a softer, a softer feeling. But we also have a waterfall, legs that are mitered to be a certain thickness, like 3in or 4in to give a really full chunky look throughout the whole entire countertop. Very heavy. Those. The legs come assembled as a four sided piece. We'll just call it almost looks like a a wall, and we carry that heavy piece in and glue it to the countertop in the same fashion, and then hand finish it so that it's a nice, clean, soft edge.

Jim Lather: A couple products that I don't believe you carry, but if you could just educate us based on your experience about, natural stone and the, the features, maybe some of the benefits, maybe some of the drawbacks. You know, again, I didn't realize that there's a high amount of filler in certain natural stones that go into them. And then the maintenance, I mean, it can be a lot. And so let's first talk a little bit about granite, because that would kind of be the next step. Wouldn't it. Or is it.

Sarah Hueners: It's kind of in the middle actually because you can get some very inexpensive granite, but then you can also get some really expensive granite. So it's I think it it runs the gamut between some engineered courts and some not. It's.

Jim Lather: That's a that's a really good point. I'm gonna stop you there for one second. When we were looking at slabs, they they letter them. Based on quality. I had no idea. And that determines price. Is that based on how hard they are or what is that?

Sarah Hueners: I think there's a lot of factors. I'm definitely not an expert, but I think there's a lot of factors. It might be accessibility, it might be shipping, it might be the type of quality it I think, you know, some of the more unique. Granites might be like, well, I will just say like an E as opposed to an A, which would be a base. And so it might be that that is not a stocking color for them. It might be that it's super unique. And they're they can't bring in lots of extra inventory of it because it's so unique and so expensive to purchase for them. So you're I think there is a big range and a lot of it. There are a lot of different factors that determine the price for sure.

Jim Lather: Okay. And so just to be clear we've got laminate. The next step would be solid surface. You mentioned that maybe you'd put granite in that next category and then Cambria quartz. And so if I had if, if I've chosen granite for whatever reason, I know it has the tendency to be quite a bit more porous than natural, or a quartz product. And why is that a big deal?

Sarah Hueners: Well, it's a big deal because as you're using your kitchen, your space, or your bathroom, you, it not porous would mean that things are soaking into it. And so you are leaving your butter, your olive oil, your even just water around your faucet. And if it's just soaking in and so your the, the durability isn't quite the same. A non-porous versus a porous. It's kind of a basic but non-porous means nothing soaks in. Porous means that something soaks in even if you have sealed it. Which we hear so many different stories, a lot of people are like, I've never sealed my granite. I've had it for 20 years. I've never had a problem with it. Yes, whereas other people are off within the first year around the faucet, I can see it. And then when the water dries, there's like this white film or white powder, which is the calcium deposit from the water. Okay. And so we're we just kind of here, lots of different stories from people. But I guess your best recommendation would be to seal it just to make sure, you know, but every time you're cleaning it, you're breaking down that seal. So, like, just to be a responsible homeowner and just make sure that you're sealing it on the on the same timeline as what the seal that you bought recommends. So, you know, it's a 1 to 2 year seal. It's a five year seal. It's a ten year seal. etc.

Jim Lather: Gotcha. And so and then the other natural stone that you hear a lot about is a quartzite. And I had no idea. Obviously, you have some of the same properties you need to seal it, but I had no idea until I saw some quartzite slabs that had so much filler in them that actually turned green because of all the different cracking and veining that goes into it. And you really have to be careful when you're buying a product like that, but that is a little bit on the more expensive and correct.

Sarah Hueners: Yes. Then yes, quartzite. And I think a lot of people right now, a very hot color would be Taj Mahal. It's kind of creamy. It's got some really great, beautiful veining in it. But it does also like what you're saying has has some what I would say many people would be considered cracks which then they have filled with a, a white a clear something to take the crack away. So you can't feel it, but you can see it, which honestly, some people love that look. They love that they think it's very natural and wow. Isn't that isn't that beautiful? And so you're really many people are different. It's it's truly what you love. But a lot of quartzites are onyx would be that is that you would, you would see these cracks or fissures and then they would fill them just to make it not a big, you know, gaping hole. Yeah. But and a lot of times even when those are being fabricated, they, they do break. And it is then they just kind of glue it back together. And because it, it is a crack, it's there. It's a, it's a fissure. And so they can repair it and make it really just how it looked before. Just now it has been repaired.

Jim Lather: That is a really interesting point. I was doing a segment for someone that sells quartzite, and this gentleman told me that he gets a waiver on every slab signed by the customer, the homeowner, that in case it breaks, he's not liable because you don't know some of those stones, how fragile they can be. Now, hopefully that doesn't happen. And certainly we don't want to scare anyone away from that product. Again, it's kind of what trips your trigger, right?

Sarah Hueners: Absolutely. Some of them are stunningly beautiful. Right. And I would say that that is what Cambria is trying to emulate, is that they have products that are really trying to look like a natural stone, but with the benefits of being more durable, non-porous, etc.. So they're they're trying to create the concept that you're looking for in that stunningly beautiful, natural, you know, one of a kind type of piece, but on a more, safer, I would say safer level.

Jim Lather: And, you know, the other thing, I think that homeowners need to consider whatever countertop surface you choose, whether you're building or remodeling, you shouldn't be afraid to mix surfaces. I mean, many times we'll see. And these big, beautiful homes, like, we'll walk into the kitchen and they'll be Cambria and then but you might go into a laundry room where there's a laundry sink, and it's a very nice laminate. And, and so, I, I think understanding also, I think another big part is when you go to remodel, the demo and the reinstallation process is so much less invasive than people think. I've seen. We walk into homes and I'm like, why are they keeping this countertop? I mean, so if I want to switch off some laminate, what's that going to take me? I mean, once the product comes in.

Sarah Hueners: Oh, it's a pretty simple process. And I think even just the word demolition is really scary to hear for some owners. And we try not to use it. We just say we're going to remove, oh. You go. We remove your existing countertops and replace them with new. And sometimes it's as easy as in the day we come in the morning we take out, you know, if you're plumbing is unhooked, which is a first start, then we take off your existing countertops, we put on your new countertops and it is within hours. Some, some projects are a little bit more in depth. Sometimes people have appliance garages, you know that that's a little bit more tricky. Some people have tile backsplash that we have to work around. Sometimes we do have to get a contractor involved, and we try and talk homeowners through that as we're on those remodel projects, because we can we can foresee certain issues. So we talk to them. But a lot of times it's a super easy process of just taking off old laminate and putting new quartz or solid surface or even new laminate on.

Jim Lather: So creative surfaces, obviously you're experts when it comes to all things countertops and a really easy way to kind of start the process would be to go online. What is your URL?

Sarah Hueners: Well CreativeSurfaces.com is our is our main website which then it can take you to the countertop website from there.

Jim Lather: Oh perfect. Well Sarah thank you so much for being on and I hope you enjoyed this episode of Home Ideas podcast.

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