Box Store vs. Custom Cabinetry: What’s the Real Difference?

Jim: Welcome to Home Ideas. I'm Jim Lather, and today I'm joined by Tim Lund from Kitchens & Windows Unlimited. Tim, I couldn't be more excited to have you here. Welcome.

Tim: I appreciate the invite.

Jim: You bet. You guys are a Sioux Falls company. You've been around, and this is how well we know each other, since 1975.

Tim: '73.

Jim: Whoops. I guess I don't know you that well. Since 1973. And you have a really interesting backstory. You bought the business from Rod. Did Rod start it?

Tim: Yes. He started it back in '73.

Jim: When did you start working for him?

Tim: In 1992. I had a job I absolutely despised, and I had three friends who worked at Kitchens, so I went to see if they had anything I could do. Next thing you knew, Rod shot me a terrible offer and I went to work for him.

Jim: Rod was a character.

Tim: He was one of a kind.

Jim: But he had to be a great guy to learn from.

Tim: He was an amazing teacher, and Rod had an absolute heart of gold. Not a lot of people ever saw that side of him.

Jim: No, he was a barker. But I did see it, in the passion. We worked together as you were transitioning into the business. What did you do for him first?

Tim: I started in the warehouse and worked up into the shop. One day he took three of us out to lunch and said, "What are your plans in ten years?" I said, goodness, I'm only 25 or 26 years old. I haven't thought that far ahead. And he said, "How would you guys like to buy me out?"

Jim: No kidding.

Tim: One of the guys bowed out right away, and two of us started buying him out. About four or five years in, my partner decided to go another way. Rod asked me if I wanted another partner, and I said, no, I sure don't. So I went on my own.

Jim: Good for you. Let's talk about the shop. What kind of shop does Kitchens & Windows have?

Tim: We've always done our own countertops, basically since the business started. When I started, we opened a cabinet modification shop. We sold a lot of Merillat back then, and Merillat did what Merillat did. So if we had to build cabinets to go with our kitchens, or modify them to fit, we did that in the shop. Today it's expanded, and we build a lot in there: mantels, floating shelves, fireplace surrounds, custom cabinets.

Jim: We've known each other for several years, and all jokes aside, I had no idea.

Tim: We do a lot of that in the shop now. That's the "unlimited" part: those little pieces that pull the whole project together.

Jim: And you build it right there. Very cool. So you bought the business, you were the last man standing. On the construction side, what's your specialty now?

Tim: I still mainly do windows. I guide the guys in the back if they need to build something and aren't quite sure how, and I've got my hands full just keeping everything running.

Jim: I bet. You told me when we taped our segment that your son is joining you.

Tim: Tyler's transitioning in. When I started at Kitchens, my wife was pregnant with him. I started in February, and he was born in July, so he grew up only ever knowing that place. He started working for us in high school, and now he's 34. They just had their third child last week.

Jim: Congratulations.

Tim: He's worked every part of the business, and now he's moving up front and getting involved in that side. I'll be around a few years yet for sure. One day he wants to throw me out, and the next day he doesn't want me to leave. You know how that goes. I'm happy to have another generation come in and take it over.

Jim: That's very cool. Today we can talk windows, we can talk cabinets, we can talk about the "unlimited" stuff I just learned about. It's your call.

Tim: It's both sides of the business. Back in 1973, when Rod started, there were two colors of cabinets and eight colors of countertops. Now the colors are unlimited. We can order or paint any color Sherwin-Williams mixes, with unlimited stain matches. And windows have gone from a basic piece of single-pane glass in a hole to ultra-high-performance glass with built-in blinds. It's been a fun journey watching everything change. Truly, if you can dream it and draw it, we can provide it.

Jim: I want to talk about cabinets, because it drives me crazy. I go to a big box store, and its cabinet department seems to keep expanding. I'm a normal homeowner who thinks I know something and then realizes I don't, and this stuff doesn't look all that great. Nothing against the box stores; it's a commodity. I've heard the term "contractor grade." What does that mean when you're building a home?

Tim: Typically contractor grade is very low quality. It's mainly about price. And when you look at the box stores, their whole approach is price: they want to beat everybody on price, they have a few options, and you get what you get. They don't come out to your home and measure. They sit down with you, put it into a computer and let it generate a drawing. There's no experience behind that, and no backup. If something doesn't fit, you're on your own. We start from the very beginning. We want to come to your home, look at everything and be part of it from the get-go. If something doesn't work, that's on us, not on you. As for quality, we have lines that can do builder grade if that's where the budget is, or the full showboat custom kitchen you've dreamed of, and everything in between. We try to steer people to what will fit their home and their needs. Some people only ever do one kitchen in their lifetime; others do a dozen because they move a lot. But for each person it's a huge investment, and the kitchen has become the focal point of the house. That's the fun part: watching things change so dramatically for people.

Jim: I don't know if this is a good question, but I'll ask it anyway, because I've been known to ask a bad question or two. It sure seems like cabinets aren't what they used to be. How do you combat the decline in quality as it relates to price?

Tim: In today's world, everything is price, price, price. There's been a lot of cheap imported hardware and a lot of cheap finishes put on cabinets, and as long as they last a few years, some companies are fine with that. We sell some lines with a one-year warranty, some with five years, and several with lifetime warranties, because when you make that kind of investment, you should be able to use those things every day for a long, long time. Especially at the box stores, quality is rarely discussed. And unfortunately, quality is taken for granted today: people assume that whatever they pay, it has to be good quality, whether it's a new car or anything else. That's far from the case.

Jim: Again, not to beat up on box stores, but I've been in houses where I opened a cabinet door and looked inside and there was plastic.

Tim: There's just no way that's going to last.

Jim: I understand everybody has a budget, and you don't need the Taj Mahal. But one thing Kitchens & Windows does really well is the consultative part of your business. When you remodel, you need someone you trust, someone who's done it for years. Have you ever had a customer who said, "No, I'm doing this no matter what," and you're scratching your head?

Tim: Several times. You try to guide them through the process. Rod always told a story about sitting down with a farm couple to design their kitchen. They had a window facing out into the yard, and Rod said it destroyed the whole kitchen and had to go. He wouldn't budge; he was stubborn that way. In the end we never sold that kitchen, because he never took the time to ask why that window was so important. She stood there every morning and watched her husband go out and do chores. So we really try to get to know customers and why they want certain things. A lot of times it makes sense once you understand why.

Jim: Here's a math question, and I'm sorry if you weren't prepared for it. Approximately what does remodeling your kitchen add to the value of your home?

Tim: It depends partly on how long you live in the home and whether you plan to sell, but it always exceeds what you put into it. It's similar with a front door. A number of years ago, Therma-Tru did a study with two identical homes; actually, it was the same home. They put a really nice front door on one and a six-panel steel door on the other. Behind the door, the house was exactly the same. They had realtors and customers look at the house and estimate its sale price based only on the front. It was a $4,000 investment in the front door, and it made a $25,000 difference in impression, because when people saw a cheap steel door, they assumed the rest of the house was the same, and when they saw a nice stained fiberglass door, they assumed it was a quality home. It's similar when you walk into a home and see old plywood cabinets, or open them up and see raw particle board, which I've seen in many cabinets. That gives people the impression that the owners cheaped out on everything, because they didn't spend the money on the showplace of the house.

Jim: That makes perfect sense. And I find it ironic that the kitchen is probably the most popular room in the house, even if you're like my family and eat out every day.

Tim: It's the gathering spot in the house nowadays. We rarely do kitchens without a peninsula or an island, and that's where the whole family gravitates. Kids do homework there, family meetings are held there, someone's cooking while you stand on the other side visiting. I think you spend more time in the kitchen than in any other room.

Jim: You sell many brands at different price points, each with its own fit for homeowners. How many cabinet brands do you have?

Tim: Right now we have five. With cabinets and windows both, there's very little overlap between brands. We don't want the same thing on the floor twice. We only bring on another line, or swap one out, if it adds something we don't already offer. That way we cover every price category and every design need, and it's worked really well.

Jim: When I'm picking cabinets, you said you'll come out and measure. I want to ask if there's such a thing as a square wall in a home, but I don't want to upset your contractor friends.

Tim: Funny story. I just measured for a valance on a wide opening, about 17 feet, and there was a half-inch difference in the drop from the ceiling from one side to the other. That's not uncommon.

Jim: So how the heck do you get a cabinet to go in?

Tim: With today's lumber, it's hard to keep everything straight and flat. We went to a house the other day and checked the corners with a big four-foot square, and the corners were absolutely perfect. Then we put a ten-foot straightedge against the wall, and the wall was like an ocean, because the studs had gone wild. That creates a whole other set of issues when you're setting cabinets so the fronts are on one flush plane, and especially countertops. And this was a very conscientious small-town builder. The lumber is what it is, and you're often buying really young trees now, so studs are going to move, especially in winter when the cold makes them bow. We had a house one year where in winter you could stick your whole hand between the ceiling and the crown molding, and in summer it was tight.

Jim: That's crazy. I have a slab on grade, and a bathroom door that sticks in the summer and has a big gap in the winter. I never thought that could happen, but that's how building materials work. It's important to know, though, and it's another reason to use someone like Kitchens & Windows Unlimited, because you're responsible for putting these in. Tell me about that.

Tim: Our install crew used to build houses and apartment buildings, and they're spot on. When we send a crew out to install windows, cabinets, siding, whatever it is, we're extremely confident in the result before it ever starts, because we know the quality of their work. And for full-blown remodels, we've set up a team: one drywaller, one electrician, one plumber, one painter. So every time we send someone to a job site, we know they're the best they can be, and if there's ever an issue, there's no question about getting them back to take care of it.

Jim: Because sometimes things happen.

Tim: You never know. But we're very confident in the team we've assembled, and that makes selling installed projects much easier.

Jim: Good point. Let's talk about finishing. You mentioned all the Sherwin-Williams colors. You're not finishing these cabinets, but you help on the front end with selecting stains and colors. Tell me about the design side of your business. Do you use technology, or is it based on experience?

Tim: It's a little of both. We've got roughly a hundred years of combined cabinet design experience sitting at the desks, so once they've seen a space, they have a pretty good idea of what will work well. Then we sit down and collaborate with the homeowners. And this AI thing is coming around, where people bring in fully designed kitchens. Everything looks really cool on paper, but it doesn't work in the real world a lot of the time. AI will put 14 feet of cabinets in a 12-foot space, because it just does. We do have design software, but most of the time it's based on experience and on conversations with homeowners about how they'll use their kitchen.

Jim: Not to harp on AI, because it's fun to use, but it's a compilation of everything on the internet, and a lot of those things don't go together, yet they end up in one picture.

Tim: You're correct, and then you get the joy of unraveling that. I used to talk about that with Pinterest and some of the things people brought in, but that's pretty mild compared to this.

Jim: At least it was real.

Tim: Exactly.

Jim: Let's do some logistics. I'm going to remodel, and I want to consider working with you. I'll probably stop at your showroom first. What's the address?

Tim: We're on the corner of 3rd and Kiwanis, at 525 North Kiwanis Avenue in Sioux Falls.

Jim: And you're open?

Tim: Typically Monday through Friday, 8 to 5, and 9 to noon. But we'll do anything. We do a lot of evening appointments, because that's what works best for people. I'm usually there late every night, my salespeople are there late, and we'll accommodate pretty much anything that works for the homeowners.

Jim: That's a great place to start. And you have a website. What's the address?

Tim: kwunlimited.com.

Jim: kwunlimited.com, another great place to start. Tim, I want to end this segment with the coolest cabinet install you've ever done. You didn't know I was going to ask that.

Tim: I had no idea. We've done some pretty neat stuff. Twenty or 25 years ago, I got to work on a humongous home up in Brookings. I went up and installed the cabinets, and it took me about a week and a half. It was a lot of cabinetry. They had big beam ceilings and paneled walls, and it gave a glimpse into how the other half lives. It was some of the most beautiful cabinetry we've ever installed: a mix of painted and stained, with great big stacked crown moldings.

Jim: I bet the homeowner loved it.

Tim: They did. They even put an elevator and a bowling alley in it.

Jim: Are you kidding me? I wish that were my home. Tim, thanks so much for being on and for giving us a glimpse into the cabinet side of your business. Great run in business, great company, and it's been a lot of fun working with you over the years.

Tim: I appreciate the invite, Jim, and everything you guys do for us on the show. It's been awesome.

Jim: Thanks, Tim.